Ep 107: Thom Dennis - Leading Through the Void & the Value of Retreats

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Truth and Transcendence Brought to you by yes you Now with Catherine Luelling, truth and Transcendence, episode 107.

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And today I've got my friend, tom Dennis, and a regular guest on Truth and Transcendence, back on the show because Tom and a friend of his are running an extraordinary retreat in September and Tom put together a short list of people and he invited myself and various other people to interview him as part of his promotion of this event, and I, of course, was delighted to do so and it occurred to me this was a wonderful opportunity to not just talk about Tom's event but also just to talk about why retreats can be such a wonderful thing to do and so valuable and useful.

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So welcome back to Tom.

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They've gone.

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Have fantastic to see you again.

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We've met in various podcasting contexts a number of times and, of course, I've known you for years and I always love talking to you.

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So thank you for coming on for another conversation.

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Thank you, catherine, for I was going to say putting up with me, but it's not.

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I don't quite mean that, but it's yes, I think that's what.

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Because we're British, tom, we can say that to each other.

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Yes, putting up with one another is the British way of saying we love each other, totally, allowing for the Britishness of it all.

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So I wanted to have a chat with you today because I'd heard about this what sounds like incredible retreat thing you were doing in September.

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I think, isn't it?

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Yeah, september, the 23rd to the 30th year.

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Wow.

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So that sounds amazing and I wanted to hear more about it.

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But I also wanted to kind of chuck in a few things I'd like to say about retreats.

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You know, over the years I've been on numerous retreats myself and they have really made a difference to my life, and I think one of the things about them that I've really noticed is I never know what difference they're going to make before I go.

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And the reason for that is that when I go on a retreat, I go into my mind goes into a different kind of state, because I relax and I'm not having to get my job done or achieve anything.

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I'm outside my normal context.

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I'm surrounded by other people who are all there for the same reason really in a beautiful location, and so I go into a completely different.

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I know, my brain waves probably do something completely different from usual, and I have my imagination comes through.

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So of course, I don't know what's going to happen, because I'm in a different frame of mind from the one I'm normally in, so I can't predict it.

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But I always come out renewed and refreshed and with more imagination and well resourced.

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So hence thinking, what a great thing that you're doing this, and I just want to.

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I've got a few questions I'd like to ask you, so perhaps people listening and watching can get a better understanding of where you might be coming from in putting this together and offering it out, because it's for leaders, isn't it specifically?

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It is for leaders and those who aspire to leadership, but essentially those who have a responsibility for people beyond themselves.

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Yeah, great, so that is a subsection of the population.

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It's people with particular, because I think it's quite challenging at the moment in the world.

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I mean, it's always challenging being a leader, but particularly at the moment, after the kind of disruptive time we've had and you've been working with leaders for a long time what's your observation of the sorts of challenges that are most common at the moment with leaders?

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Well, there's always uncertainty, and I think for some years now, we've advocated the whole principle of managing ambiguity, in other words, not having linear thinking, and in not being binary yes, no, on off red, well, black, white, whatever it is, and I think some leaders have engaged without much more than others.

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But we've had a pandemic, we've got a war and we've got some extraordinary things that are going on in the political arenas, not just in this country, but really in many countries, and so all of that leads to more uncertainty.

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And on top of that, I think, particularly the pandemic, but also if you look at organizations, in the past they used to dictate what society thought, but I think now society has its own momentum and a lot of organizations are now being pushed to consider the thinking of their people in a new way.

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I remember that when I was coaching a CEO, and the person who left his office just as I was going to go in had just announced that, as from Monday, she wanted to be called he, and you've never come across this before.

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And so there are all these different pressures and tensions, and whilst they've always been caring CEOs, I think the whole concept of mental well-being and neurodiversity are concepts that I think still a lot of leaders in organizations are frankly don't know how to engage with at all.

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Yeah.

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And so.

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It's hard enough to do it at home, in our own families, isn't it?

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Yes.

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Or in our own heads, let alone trying to keep an eye on the wellness of an entire organization.

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So I think you're right.

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It's very, very challenging.

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I think that's always been challenging for leaders in my experience as well working with them.

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I feel like most leaders actually are very benevolent in that regard and would like their people to have good you know, would like to have good will and people feeling fulfilled.

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I think most of the people I've ever dealt with that's been the case, but many of them have said to me exactly as you're saying.

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It's not always easy to see what to do, especially if you're exhausted yourself.

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Exactly, yes, yes, that's very true, and I think that, because of the I was just talking to a guy earlier on today, ceo of a startup, and he's there's three founders him in Ireland, one in Canada and one I can't remember the Thauris somewhere the three founders of the organization and they've got some work that's going on in India and it's like that really wouldn't have happened before the pandemic.

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I don't think so.

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There's this spread and apparently, yes, of course, that means that many more organizations are operating at 24 hour clock and the demands on leaders is that much greater, and not least in them being able to set boundaries for themselves.

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You know, when am I going to switch off?

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When am I actually going to be at home and not looking at emails?

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I think these challenges have always been considerable for C-suite members, but now much more.

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Yes, yes, because at least back in the day, when it was only in one's own time zone at three o'clock in the morning, one was not going to receive a phone call.

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But now, at any point in time, things might be kicking off in one of the sites somewhere else altogether.

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You're absolutely right.

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Yeah, it's very challenging.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And so I think the call for energy for leaders I mean, if you're a founder or you're an entrepreneur, or I think particularly with them but also CEOs of more established businesses they need to keep going, they need to keep this sort of sense of what I call drive, and the question is where does your drive come from and how do you manage that?

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That's one of the fundamental questions that I'm sort of really focused on, and for me, the retreat is really aimed at helping people begin to explore that drive, and hence the title Leading Through the Void, because it's like the drive comes from within us somehow.

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Yes, I mean, I've been asking people on LinkedIn what drives you, and people come up and they say, oh well, I've got to support my family or I really feel like this is the right thing to do.

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But when you start to unpick that, you say, yeah, that's fine, but where does that drive come from?

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And then most of them say I actually have no idea and all the time that you can't identify, you can't, you can't meet it.

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Then the question is who's driving who?

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Indeed.

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And, of course, all those drives, those immediate answers people come up with.

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They're not wrong, are they?

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No.

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They're just not the thinnest end of the wedge.

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They're sort of partway up the wedge, aren't they?

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So they're what's been understandable and understood to that point.

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So they're not wrong.

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I mean, in my experience, this question of asking about our own drive and where it comes from, to me is a question that's worth asking repeatedly in life.

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Because I don't know about you, tom, but in my experience I find I feel like I kind of get closer to what it is over time.

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You know, in my twenties, or even my teenage years, I thought I knew absolutely what it was.

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I mean I knew I was capable of knowing then and then, as time's gone on, at different points, I've really examined it and got a better clarity.

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So I'm because some people watching this will be thinking perhaps, well, I know what drives me.

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I went on a vision retreat up a mountain or a warrior workshop or something 20 years ago and it was.

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I was really clear what my drive was and I suppose my my thought about that is well, that's probably absolutely true.

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And then, as we evolve and as things change around us, it's fantastic to go back and look again, isn't it?

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It's fantastic to take it out again and go.

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Well, can I go a bit deeper, can I?

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Can I learn even more about that, more nuanced?

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Do you feel like you're?

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you know the people who are coming along because I know you've got a nice group growing already for this retreat are there like a mixture of people who are looking at this sort of thing for the first time and people who are looking at it for the fifth, sixth, seventh time, going to be working together?

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Well, it's a little bit of a spread of both, but I think mostly it's it's people who are quite tired and are looking for an understanding of what this is about.

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So, probably at the early stages of an exploration, and I think for some people it's actually kind of scary because, well, what do I need to know?

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What this drive is Is?

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Where does it come from and what, what?

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What does that?

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How does that serve me?

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Because I remember working with one of the the global banks a little while ago and we were running a program around leadership and communication and the sponsor was promoted and he went off to New York and the new guy, who was also an American, came in and he called me in.

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He said what's this program?

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I said what is your leadership communication?

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He said it's not going to change the world, is it?

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And I said, well, actually, yes, that's, that is the idea.

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And he said, well, I don't want it, I want them on the desk, I want them making money and it and it.

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It was a real sort of wake up that me and my naivety just expecting everybody to want to develop and want to develop their people.

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Actually, for some people the priorities are very different.

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Yes, exactly yeah.

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But I think one of the things about being a leader is that you can't be just thinking about yourself, can you?

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You've got to be thinking about your people as well, and it, let's say, a leader reaches a point where they think well, I'm pretty happy with where I got to right, but then what about all those other people that you're leading, many of whom actually want to be growing?

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Do you not want to continue to be learning and expanding and growing in order to be better able to help them?

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Because I've you know that's one of the things as a leader.

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It goes beyond am I just getting my needs met right now.

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It goes way beyond that to am I helping my people get their needs met?

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so that they can be really fulfilled in achieving what they want to achieve.

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So it's a different level of demand, I think, when we're a leader.

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I love your positivity.

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I think my experience of leaders is a little different to yours and I think that's kind of a credit to you and the energy you put out and the people that you attract to you are of that ilk that you have just described, because I think that there are all sorts of leaders out there and that are motivated by different things.

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And I suppose I don't know because I've been, I suppose because I'm an ex-Marine people think that I can deal with all the tough nuts and the problems.

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But I've been asked in organisations very often to come in and coach somebody who is causing damage In the banks.

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They call it making noise.

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There's too much noise around this person and there's always this reticence to deal with it, because that person is probably making more money than anybody else, but they're making it at the expense of something and it's normally the people around them, and so I think that's a great motivator for me.

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It's part of what drives me is to help people see the impact that they are having on the people around them.

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To what end are you driving this organisation?

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To what end are you driving the goals?

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When you set a budget, are you aware of the consequences of the numbers that you're putting on a spreadsheet which some people have spent months working on, and you just hit them with a 30% this and a 40% that Very arbitrary sort of imposition on top of things.

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I've seen people sort of reeling under the effects of this kind of decision.

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I suppose it's a paradox, really, because they're probably the most difficult people to attract to a retreat like this, because they're much too busy doing their thing, but actually they're the ones who could benefit the most, not just for themselves, as you've described, but also for the people around them, above them and standing below them.

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And I don't know whether I'm just naive, but those are the people, more than any others, that I would love to invite to come to a place like Liga Titlan to actually explore themselves, because it's such a release.

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And you know, because I've seen people and they come up and they say God, bloody hell, I've been a real son, so haven't I?

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And you don't even have to agree with it, because they know.

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And all of a sudden there's this new being which actually was always there, but it had been eclipsed or suppressed, and this new person says, huh, I can do all sorts of things, but I don't need to use this hard edge that I've used up until now.

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Right.

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So we're not saying come to this retreat and find out what a bastard you are.

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What we're saying is spend a lot of money and take a week out and find out what a bastard you are.

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We're not saying that.

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We're saying take a week out, possibly get a bit of a better understanding of some of the impacts you're having and discover the pure spirit that lies within all along and look at how that can come out more manifest, more.

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And I think I think probably, tom, you and I agree on a lot of levels I probably communicate in a slightly different way from you about all the things you know.

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I think people are happier when they have done that sort of exploration.

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I think they're happier when they discover that behind the in quotes, potentially bastard.

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Let's be nice to say it's a facade, it's a facade.

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Exactly.

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Actually is a perfectly good, decent person who would like a bit more free reign perhaps, but I think you know.

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Another thing for leaders is that constant pressure of delivering to the bottom line.

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Yes unfortunate belief that a lot of people have, which is, if I allow myself to be a bit more flexible, a bit more empathetic, and so forth, that by definition means taking my finger, taking my foot, off the gas pedal for achieving the bottom line, and in my experience that's not actually how it works.

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No, and also I think there's a fear of being perceived as weak.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And that is, I think, very often.

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It's because at some stage I have been judged as being weak and that was really not a nice experience.

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So I'm not going to do that.

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I'm going to project this facade of tough and I can prove that by my numbers, but actually it has a cost.

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That's the point.

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It has a cost Not just to the people around and actually to the business, but to the individual as well, and I think there are an awful lot of people out there who are in society, judges them awfully successful and yet inside they're not happy.

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What is success and does it make me happy?

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And I think history and current events and current experience would suggest it doesn't.

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It doesn't.

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And so what's all this drive about?

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And would a bit of self-care be such a bad thing?

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And actually people do go off on holiday, don't they?

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For a week, two weeks, three weeks, and what you're talking about is they go off on holiday, which is actually very useful, as opposed to an opportunity to gain a lot of weight and top up one's alcohol quotient.

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Well, not only that, actually, If you look at people who go away for two weeks, the first week, if they can put their phone down at all, they're beginning to unwind, and the body that then says in the second week, this is not bad, since you're relaxing, we can now get rid of some of the toxins you've been building up over the last year.

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So they get sick and they come back, and a lot of them are still not awfully well, and then they've got to go back to work and it's not a positive cycle really.

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Because the moment you relax, the body will try and eliminate all the poisons that you've been accumulating, and that typically comes out as some kind of illness.

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Wouldn't it be amazing if you were actually in your own state and under control of yourself to the extent that you were eliminating these things as you went along, so that there wasn't this buildup?

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Yes, that's right.

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Someone said a great thing the other day.

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They said something along the lines of the goal is to be living a life that you don't need to try to escape from, which I thought was great, and I think a lot of people, when they go on holiday, they're trying to get an escape from their life rather than celebrate the fact that their life is great, and that's not true for everybody, of course.

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No.

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Tom, if somebody wanted to know more about this retreat and explore whether or not it's right for them, can they contact you and have a chat about?

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it.

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I would love them to do that.

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Yes, they can find me on LinkedIn.

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Tom Dennis, t-h-o-m Dennis, and the website for the retreat is leading through the void, or one word.

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And yeah, how amazing it is to actually have a sense of what that void is and how to embrace it.

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I think one of the things that's really scary is that people would say, well, like my example of the banker, you know, I don't want them to stop driving.

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Well, that's fine, but let's do that from a much more conscious place.

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So it's much easier to set boundaries, it's much easier to care for yourself, it's much easier to have a sense of the people around you and the impact you're having.

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Isn't that a fantastic opportunity?

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Yeah, I presume everyone's going to learn from each other on this retreat as well.

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They're going to meet fantastic networking opportunity.

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Absolutely yes.

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Yes, there's lots of side benefits as well.

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I mean, it's got a spa and massage and yoga and all that kind of stuff as well.

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Fantastic and is it reassuringly expensive?

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Because I always think these good events.

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They need to be expensive because then people actually properly invest in themselves when they go.

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Yeah Well, the price is set just over $9,000 for the week.

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But what we've said is that there are some scholarships available for those people who are not going to be sponsored by their companies, because what a company looks at and judges what's value is quite different to how an individual will see these things.

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So I think it's important that whatever level a financial level that the person's at we should be able to accommodate that, but certainly I think it's extremely good value and all they've got to do is get themselves to Guatemala City and we'll take them from there to the venue.

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I mean, you can only get to it by boat.

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It's quite special.

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Sounds amazing.

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So we'll look after them and, yeah, it'll be great.

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Beautiful.

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Well, I just like that to acknowledge, tom, because putting on events like this is quite a generous and risky thing to do, because you never know how many people are going to want to come.

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You never know if there's going to be people having dramas in the last week beforehand or whatever.

00:27:53.550 --> 00:27:57.950
You just never know there's going to be a rainstorm for the entire week.

00:27:57.950 --> 00:27:59.505
You just don't know.

00:27:59.505 --> 00:28:01.788
And you don't have to do it, do you?

00:28:01.788 --> 00:28:03.364
You don't have to do it.

00:28:03.364 --> 00:28:10.388
You could just be coaching everybody happily puttling along, but no, you've decided to go out on a limb and offer this retreat.

00:28:10.388 --> 00:28:21.310
So I think, cue us to you, sir, and gratitude to you for doing it, because I think it's a bold thing to do and a great, great contribution.

00:28:22.701 --> 00:28:23.663
That's in your kind.

00:28:23.663 --> 00:28:26.289
I appreciate those words, particularly from you.

00:28:26.871 --> 00:28:27.452
Oh, bless you.

00:28:27.452 --> 00:28:35.605
So, before we wind up, because we're just about to run out of time, is there anything else that you'd like to make sure you'd like to say before we finish?

00:28:41.060 --> 00:28:46.103
Just I'd really encourage people, if they've been tickled at all by this, to get in touch and let's have a conversation.

00:28:46.103 --> 00:29:02.221
This is not just for heavy hitters, or it's for people who are curious about themselves and want to actually be better leaders, and for organizations.

00:29:02.221 --> 00:29:11.028
They will get a better leader back, and that's kind of what it's about really.

00:29:12.560 --> 00:29:12.981
Fantastic.

00:29:12.981 --> 00:29:21.191
Well, Tom Dennis, thank you very much for another conversation and I know that leading through the void is going to be amazing.

00:29:21.191 --> 00:29:22.566
Thank you very much.

00:29:24.421 --> 00:29:25.784
Thank you.

00:29:25.845 --> 00:29:39.404
Catherine, you've been listening to Truth and Transcendence, the regular weekly podcast from yes you, now with Catherine Llewellyn.

00:29:39.404 --> 00:29:45.407
For more information, head to yesunowtodaycom.

Ep 107: Thom Dennis - Leading Through the Void & the Value of Retreats

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